Comments on: Building Soccer Fields in downtown Montreal http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html society, technology and me Thu, 28 Aug 2008 02:21:59 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: hugh http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-835 hugh Mon, 26 Sep 2005 23:18:45 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-835 hey mike, did you see my post on public domain? check it, I think it's relevant... namely that ISF is not just protecting, but you are CREATING a public space - a non-commerical place where life just happens, not reduced to a commerical transaction. You are enriching the space by giving a new -and public-place for communication. I've told you before, but ISF is a brilliant project because it has worked. on a volunteer basis. for the greater good. (even if articulating that good is difficult). you should check this book by safdie, on public space -from an architecture view-but very relevant to what you are doing. <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0813335450/qid=1127794574/sr=8-6/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i6_xgl14/002-0081270-1545621?v=glance&s=books&n=507846" rel="nofollow">city after the automobile</a>. hey mike, did you see my post on public domain? check it, I think it’s relevant… namely that ISF is not just protecting, but you are CREATING a public space - a non-commerical place where life just happens, not reduced to a commerical transaction. You are enriching the space by giving a new -and public-place for communication.

I’ve told you before, but ISF is a brilliant project because it has worked. on a volunteer basis. for the greater good. (even if articulating that good is difficult).

you should check this book by safdie, on public space -from an architecture view-but very relevant to what you are doing.
city after the automobile.

]]> By: hanna http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-836 hanna Mon, 26 Sep 2005 23:26:59 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-836 ah, beautiful - i didn't know you had a blog; now i do. :) i get the soccer field analogy better after reading it here... the link had been somewhat tenuous when we chatted about it a few days ago, but i see what you mean now. ISF is interested in providing the space (whether it be physical or virtual) in which community can 'happen'. the one-to-many push v. many-to-one push comment is useful too - i agree that too often, people forget that there is real merit in encouraging 'old fashioned' social ties to develop. (i'm thinking Granovetter here) Technology is great, but not always essential/necessary. ah, beautiful - i didn’t know you had a blog; now i do. :)

i get the soccer field analogy better after reading it here… the link had been somewhat tenuous when we chatted about it a few days ago, but i see what you mean now. ISF is interested in providing the space (whether it be physical or virtual) in which community can ‘happen’.
the one-to-many push v. many-to-one push comment is useful too - i agree that too often, people forget that there is real merit in encouraging ‘old fashioned’ social ties to develop. (i’m thinking Granovetter here) Technology is great, but not always essential/necessary.

]]> By: mtl3p http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-837 mtl3p Tue, 27 Sep 2005 11:08:55 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-837 thanks you guys - (running off to class). yes hugh, I read your post. and yes it's completely relevant. I think that we're building an enhanced place so that things like public domain content can be more visible. thanks you guys - (running off to class). yes hugh, I read your post. and yes it’s completely relevant. I think that we’re building an enhanced place so that things like public domain content can be more visible.

]]> By: mtl3p http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-838 mtl3p Tue, 27 Sep 2005 11:10:31 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-838 I asked the board of ISF for feedback. This is an excerpt from Benoit that I wanted to post here: "My favorite would be how to get people to look at content the are not initially interested in or did not previously know exists. Toward that end, how much can/should or can't/shouldn't control what people see. Not from a layout or even from a content organisation perspective, but the context in which it is displayed, what is chosen, and why. It touches several issues overlapping marketing, publicity, curating and advocacy." I asked the board of ISF for feedback. This is an excerpt from Benoit that I wanted to post here:

“My favorite would be how to get people to look
at content the are not initially interested in or did not previously know exists. Toward that end, how much can/should or can’t/shouldn’t control what people see. Not from a layout or even from a content organisation perspective, but the context in which it is displayed, what is chosen, and why. It touches several issues overlapping marketing, publicity, curating and advocacy.”

]]> By: amy http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-839 amy Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:47:31 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-839 The interesting thing about ISF as an activist group is its demand for public dialogue,through which social change happens, as illustrated in your soccer field analogy. This makes me think of constructivist pedagogy and the progressive teacher’s aim for students to construct meaning through action and experience. John Dewey argues that children should be active citizens in a community of learners, making meaning together and engaging in democratic collaboration. One of the criticisms to this type of pedagogical forum is practical. Teachers must be aware of the goals and objectives of a line of inquiry, facilitating learning to go in the “correct” direction. This is particularly important for subjects like math and science. Ideally, it is a student, within a community who recognizes that the evidence doesn’t add up, and redirects everyone towards the right path. Unfortunately, that student, if present, typically has a small voice and minimal impact. Therefore, the teacher plays an important role in shaping student inquiry, which contradicts a central constructivist idea of authentic, student-driven learning. Why am I telling you this? Because – shit, this always happens, me forgetting half way between a relatively important idea – because… Well, 1) bringing the conversations back to emergence and connections. You should continue to ask how this space is similar to other projects, like the soccer field, like education, like architecture; 2) there was something in Benoit’s comment that got me started on this practical concern about constraints and the need to shape learning. How does or how will ISF manipulate its participants to engage in a positive direction? How does the layout/content/technology influence action, like teachers do in the classroom? How or will this contradict the goal to provide “platforms that were not explicitly geared towards this or that agenda but that strengthened community”? The interesting thing about ISF as an activist group is its demand for public dialogue,through which social change happens, as illustrated in your soccer field analogy.

This makes me think of constructivist pedagogy and the progressive teacher’s aim for students to construct meaning through action and experience. John Dewey argues that children should be active citizens in a community of learners, making meaning together and engaging in democratic collaboration. One of the criticisms to this type of pedagogical forum is practical. Teachers must be aware of the goals and objectives of a line of inquiry, facilitating learning to go in the “correct” direction. This is particularly important for subjects like math and science. Ideally, it is a student, within a community who recognizes that the evidence doesn’t add up, and redirects everyone towards the right path. Unfortunately, that student, if present, typically has a small voice and minimal impact. Therefore, the teacher plays an important role in shaping student inquiry, which contradicts a central constructivist idea of authentic, student-driven learning.
Why am I telling you this? Because – shit, this always happens, me forgetting half way between a relatively important idea – because…
Well, 1) bringing the conversations back to emergence and connections. You should continue to ask how this space is similar to other projects, like the soccer field, like education, like architecture; 2) there was something in Benoit’s comment that got me started on this practical concern about constraints and the need to shape learning. How does or how will ISF manipulate its participants to engage in a positive direction? How does the layout/content/technology influence action, like teachers do in the classroom? How or will this contradict the goal to provide “platforms that were not explicitly geared towards this or that agenda but that strengthened community”?

]]> By: mtl3p http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-840 mtl3p Tue, 27 Sep 2005 16:02:41 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-840 coops. 1) we are definitely doing that. and we're trying to benefit from the experience and expertise of architects, urban planners, and community and media activists to learn from them what "works" and to inform our design. 2) Hmm. My first reaction is that I don't want ISF to be a teacher telling it's students (users) where to go and what to do. But I know that's not what you're saying. The fact is, we are setting up the scene and some of the rules, and we need to take our responsability for what kind of use we expect people should make with it. Truly, I think we're out of our depth here - but the thing is - if we don't do it, only private companies will. and that's no good. what needs to happen is lots of groups like us need to take whacks at this in lots of different cities. through sharing experiences of our many attempts, we will gradually figure out some good ways to do this. That's all I can figure. coops.

1) we are definitely doing that. and we’re trying to benefit from the experience and expertise of architects, urban planners, and community and media activists to learn from them what “works” and to inform our design.

2) Hmm. My first reaction is that I don’t want ISF to be a teacher telling it’s students (users) where to go and what to do. But I know that’s not what you’re saying. The fact is, we are setting up the scene and some of the rules, and we need to take our responsability for what kind of use we expect people should make with it.

Truly, I think we’re out of our depth here - but the thing is - if we don’t do it, only private companies will. and that’s no good.

what needs to happen is lots of groups like us need to take whacks at this in lots of different cities. through sharing experiences of our many attempts, we will gradually figure out some good ways to do this. That’s all I can figure.

]]> By: Patrick Dinnen http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-841 Patrick Dinnen Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:19:12 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-841 Really like this piece Mike, it crystalises some topics I had been thinking about (and lots I hadn't got to). I particularly like argument 2, that ISF are activists because they change the public perception of what can be done in technology by people other than just the big companies. In fact I think that your counter-argument, that you have to keep exceeding expectation of what can be done is probably too harsh. Of course it's great to keep improving on what you did before and make people continually amazed about what you can pull off. But also there is a strong argument that once you have changed the perception about what's possible 'enough' you've done what needs to be done. That is, once people get that they can do this stuff it doesn't matter whether it's ISF going to mesh or maybe a bunch of new kids who create an alternative to the cell networks (or an orbital elevator or open source nano technology) just as long as it gets done by someone. What I'm saying is, changing the initial perception that this stuff just isn't doable is an end in itself. Really like this piece Mike, it crystalises some topics I had been thinking about (and lots I hadn’t got to).

I particularly like argument 2, that ISF are activists because they change the public perception of what can be done in technology by people other than just the big companies. In fact I think that your counter-argument, that you have to keep exceeding expectation of what can be done is probably too harsh. Of course it’s great to keep improving on what you did before and make people continually amazed about what you can pull off. But also there is a strong argument that once you have changed the perception about what’s possible ‘enough’ you’ve done what needs to be done.

That is, once people get that they can do this stuff it doesn’t matter whether it’s ISF going to mesh or maybe a bunch of new kids who create an alternative to the cell networks (or an orbital elevator or open source nano technology) just as long as it gets done by someone. What I’m saying is, changing the initial perception that this stuff just isn’t doable is an end in itself.

]]> By: hugh http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-842 hugh Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:31:29 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-842 mike, I mean public domain as a whole concept, both of art etc, but also physical and public space. the public shphere as a whole - everything non-commercial, non-private, non-separate. isf's role is much more important than providing a way for "public domain content to be more visible"... rather, ISF's mission creates (virtual) public space. THAT is inherently good (for the same reason that parks, libraries, public squares & soccer fields are good). and -- if you want to get financial about it -- those have positive effect on societymike, I mean public domain as a whole concept, both of art etc, but also physical and public space. the public shphere as a whole - everything non-commercial, non-private, non-separate. isf's role is much more important than providing a way for "public domain content to be more visible"... rather, ISF's mission creates (virtual) public space. THAT is inherently good (for the same reason that parks, libraries, public squares & soccer fields are good). and -- if you want to get financial about it -- those have positive effect on society<s general well-being by providing more public place for life to "happen." (look at how NYC started selling those community gardens to condo-developers!) Creation of public space is enriching for everyone around, in the same way a park is, in many subtle and non-obvious ways (as your soccer analogy illustrates). And ISF is activist in the sense that it is proving -- like wikipedia, like free software -- that people are very happy to contribute to the creation of public space, even if the dominant model of our times can find no "motive" to do so. ie isf is activist because it creates public space outisde the now-holy commercial transaction. mike, I mean public domain as a whole concept, both of art etc, but also physical and public space. the public shphere as a whole - everything non-commercial, non-private, non-separate.

isf’s role is much more important than providing a way for “public domain content to be more visible”…

rather, ISF’s mission creates (virtual) public space. THAT is inherently good (for the same reason that parks, libraries, public squares & soccer fields are good). and — if you want to get financial about it — those have positive effect on societymike, I mean public domain as a whole concept, both of art etc, but also physical and public space. the public shphere as a whole - everything non-commercial, non-private, non-separate.

isf’s role is much more important than providing a way for “public domain content to be more visible”…

rather, ISF’s mission creates (virtual) public space. THAT is inherently good (for the same reason that parks, libraries, public squares & soccer fields are good). and — if you want to get financial about it — those have positive effect on society

Creation of public space is enriching for everyone around, in the same way a park is, in many subtle and non-obvious ways (as your soccer analogy illustrates).

And ISF is activist in the sense that it is proving — like wikipedia, like free software — that people are very happy to contribute to the creation of public space, even if the dominant model of our times can find no “motive” to do so. ie isf is activist because it creates public space outisde the now-holy commercial transaction.

]]> By: mir http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-843 mir Tue, 27 Sep 2005 19:12:20 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-843 I think it's going to be hard to add anything really relevant to what's been said on this post already. I hope i am not repeating anything that was already said too obviously, but I wanted to add is that this analogy of the soccer field is about empowerment. Making the leap from trying to effect change in this really deterministic didactic way, for example in the way that the Cap sites were doing, to being more open and engaging and providing opportunities for people to discover alternatives and possibilities on their own. Sure i guess Cap sites look more accessible, because they are mandated to exist in public locales, but in fact they were a failure because the infrastructure dictated what could be done with the technology ie; come build your resume between 9am - 5pm monday to friday- because that's when we're open, and those are the tools we have available. Maybe ISF seems less traditionally activist because it doesn't pay lip service to what the idea of access used to mean, but it's certainly provided opportunities for groups to make use of technology in ways that wouldn't have been possible before - which sounds like the definition of activism to me. Maybe more later... I think it’s going to be hard to add anything really relevant to what’s been said on this post already.

I hope i am not repeating anything that was already said too obviously, but I wanted to add is that this analogy of the soccer field is about empowerment. Making the leap from trying to effect change in this really deterministic didactic way, for example in the way that the Cap sites were doing, to being more open and engaging and providing opportunities for people to discover alternatives and possibilities on their own.

Sure i guess Cap sites look more accessible, because they are mandated to exist in public locales, but in fact they were a failure because the infrastructure dictated what could be done with the technology ie; come build your resume between 9am - 5pm monday to friday- because that’s when we’re open, and those are the tools we have available.

Maybe ISF seems less traditionally activist because it doesn’t pay lip service to what the idea of access used to mean, but it’s certainly provided opportunities for groups to make use of technology in ways that wouldn’t have been possible before - which sounds like the definition of activism to me.

Maybe more later…

]]> By: mtl3p http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-844 mtl3p Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:03:26 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-844 "Making the leap from trying to effect change in this really deterministic didactic way, for example in the way that the Cap sites were doing, to being more open and engaging and providing opportunities for people to discover alternatives and possibilities on their own." thanks mir. that was better said than the way I did it. hugh - I have to look up what "public domain" is and whether it has as large a definition as you give it. What you're talking about is what we're trying to do - but I feel like i've / we've bitten off more than we can chew (starting to get nervous). thanks for commenting, all y'all. I'm definitely going to follow up on this train of thought. “Making the leap from trying to effect change in this really deterministic didactic way, for example in the way that the Cap sites were doing, to being more open and engaging and providing opportunities for people to discover alternatives and possibilities on their own.”

thanks mir. that was better said than the way I did it.

hugh - I have to look up what “public domain” is and whether it has as large a definition as you give it. What you’re talking about is what we’re trying to do - but I feel like i’ve / we’ve bitten off more than we can chew (starting to get nervous).

thanks for commenting, all y’all. I’m definitely going to follow up on this train of thought.

]]> By: hugh http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-845 hugh Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:34:47 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-845 ha! that's a typical mtl3p reseponse! "surely what we're doing can't be that amazing?" yes, it is...don't get nervous, roll with it. and who cares the defn of public domain, the beauty of wikipedia is we can change it if we want. ditto with what activists are "supposed to do." keep up the great work. ha! that’s a typical mtl3p reseponse! “surely what we’re doing can’t be that amazing?”

yes, it is…don’t get nervous, roll with it. and who cares the defn of public domain, the beauty of wikipedia is we can change it if we want. ditto with what activists are “supposed to do.”

keep up the great work.

]]> By: mir http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-846 mir Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:37:37 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-846 Actually what occurs to me on a second read through is that inside Benoits comment is this interesting class analysis. who finds what interesting is often a question of class and background. So to think about local content and "hacking the city"from that perspective than if ISF gets ++ ubiquitous(sp?) than it is addressing issues of class and privalege and not just creating an ivory tower for uni students and freelance webdesigners. The more one sees of what other people around them are doing the less possible it is to live in a bubble, it's like a wireless response to gated communities... - if and when the local content takes off. (she says, not to sound too pollyanna) also I think Hugh is right about public domain, it's anything run by a government or a public institution that the citizens of an area are paying for. Actually what occurs to me on a second read through is that inside Benoits comment is this interesting class analysis.

who finds what interesting is often a question of class and background.

So to think about local content and “hacking the city”from that perspective than if ISF gets ++ ubiquitous(sp?) than it is addressing issues of class and privalege and not just creating an ivory tower for uni students and freelance webdesigners.

The more one sees of what other people around them are doing the less possible it is to live in a bubble, it’s like a wireless response to gated communities…

- if and when the local content takes off. (she says, not to sound too pollyanna)

also I think Hugh is right about public domain, it’s anything run by a government or a public institution that the citizens of an area are paying for.

]]> By: hugh http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-847 hugh Tue, 27 Sep 2005 21:12:26 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-847 re: public domain, what I mean is anything that belongs to the public (ie is not private), or anywhere where the public is allowed to go (ie not private). ie public domain is EVERYTHING that is not controlled by private interest ... and governments, insomuch as they may be restrictive, do not necessarily work to defend public domain. from wikipedia (sorry!): "The public domain comprises the body of knowledge and innovation (especially creative works such as writing, art, music, and inventions) in relation to which no person or other legal entity can establish or maintain proprietary interests." And I herewith extend that to public space (including virtual) as well. re: public domain, what I mean is anything that belongs to the public (ie is not private), or anywhere where the public is allowed to go (ie not private). ie public domain is EVERYTHING that is not controlled by private interest … and governments, insomuch as they may be restrictive, do not necessarily work to defend public domain.

from wikipedia (sorry!):
“The public domain comprises the body of knowledge and innovation (especially creative works such as writing, art, music, and inventions) in relation to which no person or other legal entity can establish or maintain proprietary interests.”

And I herewith extend that to public space (including virtual) as well.

]]> By: mtl3p http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-848 mtl3p Wed, 28 Sep 2005 06:51:25 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-848 "ha! that's a typical mtl3p reseponse! "surely what we're doing can't be that amazing?"" ;-p It's true. that was a lame-ass response of mine. "and who cares the defn of public domain, the beauty of wikipedia is we can change it if we want. ditto with what activists are "supposed to do."" I think i'm in love with that response towards having a definition questioned. I might not need a morning coffee because of you, Hugh. mir - having trouble formulating this - but what I like about Benoit's post is that there is no assumed correct/informed view of the information. It's not like an upperclass/artistic/intellectual type would sit down at a local soccer field and have a complete view of it. It's (could be viewed as) a matter of getting exposure outside your community. You know - like the theories behind University of the Streets - that eveyone is an expert - or at least has expertise in areas like healthcare or economics because of how they are affected? Except our thing would be that no-ones a complete expert on the local community of a local space. Everyone has something to learn - an ability to intergrate more - irrespective of previous education or class-tastes. I think I do need a coffee afterall. that wasn't well explained. “ha! that’s a typical mtl3p reseponse! “surely what we’re doing can’t be that amazing?”"

;-p It’s true. that was a lame-ass response of mine.

“and who cares the defn of public domain, the beauty of wikipedia is we can change it if we want. ditto with what activists are “supposed to do.”"

I think i’m in love with that response towards having a definition questioned. I might not need a morning coffee because of you, Hugh.

mir - having trouble formulating this - but what I like about Benoit’s post is that there is no assumed correct/informed view of the information. It’s not like an upperclass/artistic/intellectual type would sit down at a local soccer field and have a complete view of it. It’s (could be viewed as) a matter of getting exposure outside your community. You know - like the theories behind University of the Streets - that eveyone is an expert - or at least has expertise in areas like healthcare or economics because of how they are affected? Except our thing would be that no-ones a complete expert on the local community of a local space. Everyone has something to learn - an ability to intergrate more - irrespective of previous education or class-tastes.

I think I do need a coffee afterall. that wasn’t well explained.

]]> By: mir http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-849 mir Wed, 28 Sep 2005 08:55:55 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-849 I think what you are trying to say is what I was saying, but maybe I wasn't clear enough. when I said "who finds what interesting" i meant yes it is like a bunch of cho-cho uni types sitting around loving the digital nomad versus a bunch of park-ex kids sitting around sms-ing the latests details from the great race to each other, ie; local media is a class issue. but what Benoit is saying is that the possibilities for different communities to learn and become interested in what each other are doing is there, and just needs to be hu... for lack of a better word exploited. So I think I was trying to say what you were trying to say, and now I am trying to say it again, and maybe failing again. But, is it really important that people learn things from outside their field of reference? - Just playing devils advocate here. I am reminded of a time all the kids from my shul (reform jewish) went and played softball with the chasids from up the street. I can't remember why, everything went swimmingly until the girls got up to bat - then it turned into a holy war. Okay maybe that's a bad example, but I am just trying to argue with you. (comme d'habitude) Isn't local media more about connecting with people who are similiar? I am thinkingn ow of how most public spaces have their kinds of "crowds" sorry now i am just using this comment to avoid work, I'm a gonna shuddup now. I think what you are trying to say is what I was saying, but maybe I wasn’t clear enough.

when I said “who finds what interesting” i meant yes it is like a bunch of cho-cho uni types sitting around loving the digital nomad versus a bunch of park-ex kids sitting around sms-ing the latests details from the great race to each other, ie; local media is a class issue.

but what Benoit is saying is that the possibilities for different communities to learn and become interested in what each other are doing is there, and just needs to be hu… for lack of a better word exploited.

So I think I was trying to say what you were trying to say, and now I am trying to say it again, and maybe failing again.

But, is it really important that people learn things from outside their field of reference? - Just playing devils advocate here.

I am reminded of a time all the kids from my shul (reform jewish) went and played softball with the chasids from up the street. I can’t remember why, everything went swimmingly until the girls got up to bat - then it turned into a holy war.

Okay maybe that’s a bad example, but I am just trying to argue with you.

(comme d’habitude)

Isn’t local media more about connecting with people who are similiar? I am thinkingn ow of how most public spaces have their kinds of “crowds”

sorry now i am just using this comment to avoid work, I’m a gonna shuddup now.

]]> By: mir http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-850 mir Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:03:51 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-850 okay so I shouldn't even have written that comment above because I just found something better over at Danah Boyds blog, so I will cut and paste it here and hope I don't look like I am comment slamming you or something... " There will be increasing technological advancements, but to be significant will require adoption on a social level. Yeah, javascript and amateur publishing have been around but in the last two years, we've seen genuinely mass adoption because of AJAX and blogging tools. Of course, the funny thing is that i keep seeing adverts for "Web2.0 Developers" but i still haven't seen an advert for "Web2.0 Social Scientists." We are still working in an advertising economy which means eyeballs matter and acquisitions have shown that adoption matters. So why not hire people who understand people's needs? Anyhow... I think that the biggest loose canon is the business model of all of this. Are we really comfortable relying on advertising still? How long will that last? Is there an economic innovation this round? I also still believe that the answer to figuring out a lot of this is glocalization. <b>It is not just about the social component, but introduces the legal, market and technological needs. We've got to move beyond the global village and focus on how people will repurpose it for their needs. This is why i think that issues of remix are essential to this narrative. What hiphop artists and anime remixers are doing is teaching us what it means to consume and produce as a connected process. </b>In tech land, this is the value of OpenAPIs - this is fundamentally about remixing technology. Of course, all the efforts to legitimize this are dangerous. <b>Part of the glory of hacking and remixing is the rebellious feeling of resistance. More importantly, anyone remixing is understandably wary of the institutions who are opening up or creative commons-ing the process. Aside from not wanting to be told what to do, there is fear of being too reliant on the master. This is part of the trick of OpenAPIs and CC licenses - they allow the owners to maintain power through a different incentive system. </b>You are meant to feel like you have access as long as you want, but the one who giveth can taketh away. That, of course, is a longer conversation. But it's important to remember that the power issues in remix are not solved by OpenAPIs and CC licenses. Of course, i'm all in favor of OpenAPIs because i think that they will push us further into remix culture, much to the chagrin of current hegemonic institutions. We just need to be careful so that we don't get it all banned. " yeah. say it. the whole post is here <a href="http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2005/09/25/why_web20_matte_1.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2005/09/25/why_web20_matte_1.html</a> okay so I shouldn’t even have written that comment above because I just found something better over at Danah Boyds blog,

so I will cut and paste it here and hope I don’t look like I am comment slamming you or something…

”

There will be increasing technological advancements, but to be significant will require adoption on a social level. Yeah, javascript and amateur publishing have been around but in the last two years, we’ve seen genuinely mass adoption because of AJAX and blogging tools. Of course, the funny thing is that i keep seeing adverts for “Web2.0 Developers” but i still haven’t seen an advert for “Web2.0 Social Scientists.” We are still working in an advertising economy which means eyeballs matter and acquisitions have shown that adoption matters. So why not hire people who understand people’s needs? Anyhow…

I think that the biggest loose canon is the business model of all of this. Are we really comfortable relying on advertising still? How long will that last? Is there an economic innovation this round?

I also still believe that the answer to figuring out a lot of this is glocalization. It is not just about the social component, but introduces the legal, market and technological needs. We’ve got to move beyond the global village and focus on how people will repurpose it for their needs. This is why i think that issues of remix are essential to this narrative. What hiphop artists and anime remixers are doing is teaching us what it means to consume and produce as a connected process. In tech land, this is the value of OpenAPIs - this is fundamentally about remixing technology. Of course, all the efforts to legitimize this are dangerous. Part of the glory of hacking and remixing is the rebellious feeling of resistance. More importantly, anyone remixing is understandably wary of the institutions who are opening up or creative commons-ing the process. Aside from not wanting to be told what to do, there is fear of being too reliant on the master. This is part of the trick of OpenAPIs and CC licenses - they allow the owners to maintain power through a different incentive system. You are meant to feel like you have access as long as you want, but the one who giveth can taketh away. That, of course, is a longer conversation. But it’s important to remember that the power issues in remix are not solved by OpenAPIs and CC licenses. Of course, i’m all in favor of OpenAPIs because i think that they will push us further into remix culture, much to the chagrin of current hegemonic institutions. We just need to be careful so that we don’t get it all banned.

”

yeah. say it.

the whole post is here
http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2005/09/25/why_web20_matte_1.html

]]> By: alison http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-851 alison Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:27:29 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-851 I am quite interested by this thread. I have been thinking a lot about public space and private space, both real and virtual, and I am as usual quite interested to see not just how those who are developing and theorizing community wifi's capacity to create virtual public space use that space, but others as well. Historical lessons suggest that people often pass through public space to engage privately with the internet in the way that they choose, but this has been (for some people, anyway) changed by the adoption and use of blogs. On the infrastructure level, I think what ISF is doing is very interesting, but we cannot forget that it is a model that promotes SHARING of resources as oppsed to a recreation of the underlying infrastructure. This is not a bad thing; in fact it may turn out to be a commanding new model for delivering community services. But to expand on the soccer field analogy, it is as if the soccer field belongs to a company who lets the community build on it. At the moment there is no trouble with the field, but the fact remains that it does not FUNDAMENTALLY belong to the community. In sum, there are still two levels of this experiment to explore -- that of the eventual use made by the folks who use it, and that of the structures that make it possible. I am quite interested by this thread. I have been thinking a lot about public space and private space, both real and virtual, and I am as usual quite interested to see not just how those who are developing and theorizing community wifi’s capacity to create virtual public space use that space, but others as well. Historical lessons suggest that people often pass through public space to engage privately with the internet in the way that they choose, but this has been (for some people, anyway) changed by the adoption and use of blogs.

On the infrastructure level, I think what ISF is doing is very interesting, but we cannot forget that it is a model that promotes SHARING of resources as oppsed to a recreation of the underlying infrastructure. This is not a bad thing; in fact it may turn out to be a commanding new model for delivering community services. But to expand on the soccer field analogy, it is as if the soccer field belongs to a company who lets the community build on it. At the moment there is no trouble with the field, but the fact remains that it does not FUNDAMENTALLY belong to the community.

In sum, there are still two levels of this experiment to explore — that of the eventual use made by the folks who use it, and that of the structures that make it possible.

]]> By: mtl3p http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-852 mtl3p Wed, 28 Sep 2005 12:38:00 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-852 nice one alison. I wouldn't have expected you (the academic) to be the one to bring us back to the underlying technology ;-) I could argue about the definition of "fundamental belonging" because I don't think what it all comes down to is who owns the wires, but I won't because I think you're right on. nice one alison. I wouldn’t have expected you (the academic) to be the one to bring us back to the underlying technology ;-)

I could argue about the definition of “fundamental belonging” because I don’t think what it all comes down to is who owns the wires, but I won’t because I think you’re right on.

]]> By: hugh http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-853 hugh Wed, 28 Sep 2005 16:29:29 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-853 this is something that worries me about ISF etc. is it possible that the carriers - bell etc - will find a way to shut it down? what if isf comes up with a massive mesh that covers all of mtl, and no one had to pay for internet anymore. what then? condos on your soccer fields? this is something that worries me about ISF etc. is it possible that the carriers - bell etc - will find a way to shut it down? what if isf comes up with a massive mesh that covers all of mtl, and no one had to pay for internet anymore. what then?

condos on your soccer fields?

]]> By: mtl3p http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-854 mtl3p Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:26:39 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-854 1)theres lots of ways that the project could die - but that's probably not one of them. and I'm not sure about the massivemesh situation. First - *someone* would have to pay for access to the rest of the internet - and that's not cheap. Second, even if we had a mesh covering all of MTL, we could still make location portals / soccerfields work. 1)theres lots of ways that the project could die - but that’s probably not one of them.

and I’m not sure about the massivemesh situation. First - *someone* would have to pay for access to the rest of the internet - and that’s not cheap. Second, even if we had a mesh covering all of MTL, we could still make location portals / soccerfields work.

]]> By: Metroblogging Montreal http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-859 Metroblogging Montreal Mon, 03 Oct 2005 20:58:37 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-859 <strong>Yulblog conversation starters</strong> God forbid that you should find yourself at next Wednesday's Yulblog meeting with nothing to talk about so I decided to give you some conversation starters. In what may very well be the best photograph ever taken of a Yulblogger,... Yulblog conversation starters

God forbid that you should find yourself at next Wednesday’s Yulblog meeting with nothing to talk about so I decided to give you some conversation starters. In what may very well be the best photograph ever taken of a Yulblogger,…

]]> By: mtl3p http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-860 mtl3p Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:51:45 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-860 <strong>cyberspace metaphor obsolete</strong> from Karl Schroeder - this ties into the pundit post and supports the soccer field post I did a while back: It's this overlay of the virtual over the real that makes the cyberspace metaphor obsolete. Cyberspace, after all, is... cyberspace metaphor obsolete

from Karl Schroeder - this ties into the pundit post and supports the soccer field post I did a while back: It’s this overlay of the virtual over the real that makes the cyberspace metaphor obsolete. Cyberspace, after all, is…

]]> By: mtl3p http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-861 mtl3p Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:16:48 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-861 <strong>pushing meme's</strong> I've tried to spark some interest on opensource mmorgp's on the gamecode mailing list. (GameCODE is a reseach group at Concordia that studies the sociology of video games. I was an RA there last year.) Nothing back for a while... pushing meme’s

I’ve tried to spark some interest on opensource mmorgp’s on the gamecode mailing list. (GameCODE is a reseach group at Concordia that studies the sociology of video games. I was an RA there last year.) Nothing back for a while…

]]> By: WorldChanging: Another World Is Here http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-862 WorldChanging: Another World Is Here Tue, 01 Nov 2005 20:10:27 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-862 <strong>Hacking the City, Creating Community</strong> Michael Lenczner wrote to me suggesting that I check out a recent post on his weblog about some of the larger issues raised by his... Hacking the City, Creating Community

Michael Lenczner wrote to me suggesting that I check out a recent post on his weblog about some of the larger issues raised by his…

]]> By: mtl3p http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-863 mtl3p Wed, 02 Nov 2005 00:31:51 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-863 <strong>world changing</strong> Over the last few months I figured out that WorldChanging was an interesting place with lots of interesting optimistic techies hanging around there. I read a few interesting articles on wireless there - all written by Jamais . So I... world changing

Over the last few months I figured out that WorldChanging was an interesting place with lots of interesting optimistic techies hanging around there. I read a few interesting articles on wireless there - all written by Jamais . So I…

]]> By: Bart Simon http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-855 Bart Simon Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:34:36 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-855 ok i'll jump in... on hacking the city 1. skateboarding has been a form of hacking the city for a long time now -- consider the ways in which skateboarders reclaim city spaces and appropriate them for other purposes than what they were intended for... some of these are communitarian in nature, some are not. 2. Mike - you need to check out the wifi possibilities of the nintendo_ds -- nintendogs alone is a city hack build around the intensely communal and very activist identity of dog owners and dog lovers. jus' 2 cents. ok i’ll jump in… on hacking the city

1. skateboarding has been a form of hacking the city for a long time now — consider the ways in which skateboarders reclaim city spaces and appropriate them for other purposes than what they were intended for… some of these are communitarian in nature, some are not.

2. Mike - you need to check out the wifi possibilities of the nintendo_ds — nintendogs alone is a city hack build around the intensely communal and very activist identity of dog owners and dog lovers.

jus’ 2 cents.

]]> By: mtl3p http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-856 mtl3p Tue, 08 Nov 2005 14:56:45 +0000 http://mtl3p.ilesansfil.org/blog/archives/2005/09/26/building_soccer_fields_in_downtown_montreal.html#comment-856 re: nintendo ds - hmm - maybe allow some kind of meetup for nintendo ds players? I wonder how many games can be played multiplayer? re: nintendo ds - hmm - maybe allow some kind of meetup for nintendo ds players? I wonder how many games can be played multiplayer?

]]>